I recommend reading all the comments too. It stuns me how these two groups of people have fundamental differences in worldview and in their definitions of human nature.
1
What stunned me on the Idiot blog was the inability of so many people who are so smart to communicate without cursing. They obviously consider themselves to be far more intelligent than all of the f'ing, f'ers who think paying more taxes is not a good idea.
Posted by: Pamela at March 04, 2009 01:23 PM (Ncscy)
2
What part of 100% of what I work for should be mine by default - regardless of how much that is - is not comprehensible by these people?
The example of the guy winning $4 million at poker and getting to keep $2 being A-ok as plain stupid. What right does any government have to any amount of his winnings?
Now, should we collectively pay for the military and roads and a few other things - sure. But there is no reason for people making more to be paying a higher percentage of income. And if people don't understand how it's counterproductive to do just that - well, I can't help them.
Ugh. /end rant.
Posted by: Beth at March 04, 2009 01:34 PM (qkeSl)
3
My first thought, I have to admit, is --dang! I wish I could afford to decide to make less to not get hit by the new proposed tax plan. I mean really, only someone who is making more than enough to get by can make that choice, right? I gotta say it's easy to get jealous when you're barely getting by right?
But I DO see the point. Punishing productivity could certainly get us into a huge can of worms. And besides that, it just doesn't seem fair.
Question: Under the proposed plan would it be possible for a person making over $250,000 to make LESS money because of the taxes they'd pay than they would if they made $249,999? Even if you are taxed at a higher rate aren't you still making more? Given that logic, I can see where the writer at the blog on the left side of this is coming from too.
I call myself a Democrat even though I'm a lousy Democrat because I think I'd make an even lousier Rebublican.... (And also because I'm honestly afraid that my Mom would haunt me if I slid to the other side, BUT....) In the utopian world of my mind I just can't figure out why something fair like a flat tax couldn't be utilized for what is absolutely needed... It just seems more fair to me to take 10% of poor and 10% of rich. But that's just stupid me.
4
Val -- I don't know if I can speak for "The Rich," but my guess is that, even if they still made more in the higher bracket, they oppose doing this ON PRINCIPLE. Like, OK, let's say that they take home an extra $5000 that year but they paid more in taxes on it; they'd rather not have the money -- because, as you said, they do better than just "get by" -- and stand their political and moral ground. And I understand where they're coming from, because I've done things like turn down "free" vitamins that would be covered by my military health insurance because I don't feel like that's an appropriate use of tax dollars, even though I'm entitled. And it hasn't materialized yet, but I considered rejecting a second stimulus check on principle. So I think that's where people are coming from. The extra money isn't worth it for them on principle. The commenters at that blog seemed to miss that point.
Posted by: Sarah at March 04, 2009 02:24 PM (TWet1)
DESIGNER BABIES
I thought I'd weigh in some thoughts on the "designer babies" thing that hit the news. I don't know if I'm gonna say what you think I'll say.
Two years ago, back when we thought we could control our destiny, my husband and I had a discussion about which month of the year we'd prefer our baby to be born in. Subtract 9 months, and that's when we should get to work. I can't even laugh at us because I still find it so frustrating. We also had a definite gender preference and a few other minor desires.
Nine months later, when I finally did get pregnant, I had been hit with a good dose of perspective. I wrote that I had decided that none of these preferences mattered anymore, and that all we wanted was a healthy baby to join our family.
But when that baby died, and then the next one did too, I started to lose that sense of perspective. I hate to say that I started to feel entitled to happiness. We now deserve to get exactly what we want -- boy and girl twins, of course -- because of the heartache and headache we've endured. And now at this point, if I could make it be twins, I would. I would also select for gender if I could. And one of my worst fears is spending these years trying to have a baby and then to get one who has severe health problems or birth defects. I would factor that out as much as I could.
So I kinda understand where these people are coming from.
I haven't yet had to do IVF. IVF is rough. It's painful. People who do it have been through years of sorrow and then endure physical, chemical pain in order to conceive. And I don't blame them if they want to tweak the results a little bit.
I don't see this becoming The New Thing. I don't imagine that people are going to bypass the regular old having-sex route to babies and opt to spend tens of thousands of dollars and give themselves painful shots, just so they can pick blue eyes.
And, from the CBS article, I don't give a rat's behind about this "worry":
Secondly, you're going to have the rich using these technologies, and that's going to advantage them further. It's not going to be something the poor get to do.
Cry me a river. Conversely, the rich aren't going to get welfare checks to raise their 14 babies.
I understand people's revulsion to the "playing God" aspect, but I've never heard anyone bring up this argument. I'm open to discussion on this idea, and I know I haven't thought every aspect through, but I can sympathize with these IVF patients that they feel they're due a little control in their lives. I grok that.
I heard Rick Santorum on TV the other day discussing this, saying that artificial insemination is an abomination against God. It reminded me of the time Bill Maher said that people who can't conceive should "take the hint."
The only abomination is being emotionally and financially ready to raise a family and to find yourself thwarted.
1
I do see this becoming the next big thing among the wealthy actually. There have been many studies done about how physical attributes affect how others treat you and increase your future income. For instance for every inch over 5'8" you earn (typically) and extra $800 per inch.
This is just one more advantage they can give their children. Blond hair and blue eyes are traits that people find more attractive. And they are just getting started. What about height? or IQ? What if they can isolate a gene sequence for musical genius? This does put lesser economic classes at a disadvantage. Unless of course health insurance starts covering fertility treatment (that's a whole other issue)
I don't believe you should be able to even choose the gender of your child. Look how well that's working out for China? It starts us down a slippery slope that sounds scarily like eugenics.
I understand that people think they deserve to have what they want because they have spent good hard earned money on it. But they are not buying a car. It does not work that way.
I very respectfully disagree with you on this.
Posted by: Mare at March 04, 2009 04:16 AM (APbbU)
2
I have an argument pro-gender selection: I know of some cases where both parents were carriers of a genetic disease, and if their child was of one sex it would have a 50% of being afflicted, and if it were the other it would only have a 50% of being a carrier. They profiled a few families where they had already had one child who had died, because of having this disease. So they decided to spin the sperm so as to separate the x and y chromosome carrying ones, to favor the sex that would only become a carrier. Some would disagree with this, saying the other sex should still have a chance, but I think this is a completely valid argument. It's a choice for gender, not for gender's sake, but for the sake of having a healthy child.
But of course that could be the beginning to a slippery slope, but I still feel that in some cases it is justified.
Posted by: CaliValleyGirl at March 04, 2009 05:03 AM (irIko)
3
Rick Santorum and his wife have already had one child die, and it is highly likely that their most recent baby (whom I believe is about a year old) will also die. She's a Trisomy 18 baby, SEVERE birth defect. So he's not just speaking off the cuff about birth defects from the pulpit of several easy pregnancies and healthy kids.
I get both sides of this - I really do. I had my own problems getting babies to "stick" and short of abstinence as a married lady I got pregnant no matter what. For a long time there I felt like I was having miscarriages rather than periods - that was just my personal "cycle." I think if I had been able to choose gender selection to factor out one of the issues causing my miscarriages I probably would have.
But then I wouldn't have had my son.
So that leaves me back at, "I have no idea what the answer is."
Posted by: airforcewife at March 04, 2009 05:58 AM (Fb2PC)
4
AFW, I did not know that about Santorum, which does make his statement look less crappy. But I still disagree with him.
Posted by: Sarah at March 04, 2009 06:40 AM (TWet1)
5
Yes, we do not have to agree with someone because of their family tragedies and you would think it would make them more compassionate. However, I do sympathize with their problem.
I still have faith that you will have a baby or two or more. Human beings are so complicated but the biological trend is reproduction. I also think it would be great if you could choose what you get, in this case and others like it. I definitely don't like the Chinese thing of aborting the sex they didn't want. They do have a problem now of not enough women. Serves them right!
Posted by: Ruth H at March 04, 2009 06:54 AM (hBAQy)
6
Appearance matters. As a short nonwhite person who has to look up to nearly everyone every single day, I think about this all the time.
Even so, I don't think it counts as much as other things. The advantages of height, blond hair, and blue eyes are trivial compared to a prep school education or an Ivy League degree.
The children of the rich are more likely to have all of the above in the future. And more, like IQ due to associative mating and a better environment. If equality is a concern, why worry about their hair color when there are bigger causes of disparity? Why not ban everyone whose parents have an income higher than $X from private schools? Every seat taken up by some Paris Hilton should go to a poor kid who really wants an education. I've seen rich kids waste space in expensive schools. It's disgusting. It's not fair.
The big questions are, what is 'fair', do we enforce 'fairness', and how do we enforce it?
There is a slippery slope favoring the elite. But there is another slope in the other direction exemplified by Kurt Vonnegut's short story "Harrison Bergeron". I doubt anyone really wants an HB-like society. But that still leaves an enormous spectrum of possibilities.
And in any case, the rich would pay for genetic engineering. Banning something won't make it go away. Let's suppose genetic tampering were illegal and the press found out that Richie Rich was an unnatural blond boy. Should the parents be fined? Jailed? What about Richie? Is it 'fair' for him to live with advantages his parents bought for him? Should he be subjected to a 'fair' random genetic remix? (I'd like to write a story about that ... without the trademarked characters, of course.)
Posted by: Amritas at March 04, 2009 07:25 AM (+nV09)
7
Ruth -- I agree that the aborting of babies based on gender is abhorrent. While I might not mind the practice in a petri dish, once it was implanted, the choice would be made and done.
Amritas -- Thank you for reminding me of "Harrison Bergeron." And I think you're right that hair color isn't as important as other factors. Ha, wouldn't it be funny if there turned out to be some sort of physical trait affirmative action backlash? That people who got ahead based on their looks would then be suspect of whether their looks were natural or genetically chosen for? Ha.
Posted by: Sarah at March 04, 2009 07:57 AM (TWet1)
8
Neat speculation, Sarah. Also, the perceived 'value' of physical traits might change along with their frequency.
I didn't address enhanced IQ and musical genius, which seem to be much more important than physical traits for determining a child's future. Could one ban mental 'improvements' but allow (certain?) physical ones if they are trivial? I don't think the mental 'upgrades' will necessarily lead to what parents want because of free will and environment. I have seen high-IQ people squander their intelligence. Rich parents could buy IQ, but not necessarily nurture it. And even if a kid is forced to jump through intellectual hoops, he may still reject the cerebral life when he grows up. Ditto for music. Kids aren't robots. You can't program them, not even genetically, to do what you want them to. Buying raw materials does not guarantee a house. As you wrote,
It's a waste of your money, but you have a right to waste your money.
But do we have a right to change our children? For better, for worse, or in any direction at all? People are capable of the craziest things. The potential for engineering ... arguably detrimental traits exists. Does affordability equal morality?
Posted by: Amritas at March 04, 2009 09:32 AM (+nV09)
9
I have no problem with gender selection (in this country, anyway, as I think things would balance out here even if they don't in China), and I don't have any problem with the selective avoidance of disease or genetic disorders.
When it comes to picking and choosing traits (IQ, natural talents, hair/eye color, etc.), I start to feel uncomfortable. And for me it is sort of because of the "playing God" thing. I mean, IMO, such choosing should have been done by the choice of your mate. The choice of a mate (or in certain IF cases, of the sperm/egg donor) is when (again, IMO) you choose your children's potential intelligence, their potential talents, and their potential looks. Digging into their DNA to cut & paste desired traits sounds to me like it has the potential to cause more harm than good, both in potential "side effects", and in the increased ability for a rich parent to treat their child as a trophy, like a fancy purebred dog, rather than as a loved and treasured member of the family (Something I have already seen among certain mothers of overseas adoptees in some of the more affluent areas of our city - the "Oh, where did you get yours?" thing that makes me grate my teeth when I hear it).
Basically, I'm not a big fan of the idea of genetic engineering if it is not for a specific medical purpose - to avoid disease or defects.
Posted by: Leofwende at March 04, 2009 10:26 AM (jAos7)
10
CVG - In that case can't they also do genetic testing to see which zygote's aren't carrying the defect? If they were trying to skew the odds in hopes that they would all not have the gene then I have no problem with that. What they did was no guarantee, they were just trying to better their chances. I fully believe science should be used to better the odds that a child will not be born sick.
Amritas - Nothing in life is fair. It's sucks, but there it is. No one is entitled to anything. I got picked on when I was little for being heavy and I've gotten picked on as an adult for being un-naturally tall. I spend half my time in the grocery store getting things off the top shelf for people so they don't hurt themselves climbing up. I think this designer baby thing would become the next 'in' thing. People respond to physical attractiveness more favorably. Will that be the 'edge' that gets a kid into Harvard? Maybe.
Your scenario would make an intriguing short story.
Posted by: Mare at March 05, 2009 03:56 AM (APbbU)
11
This reminds me that I need to watch Gattaca again.
Posted by: Leofwende at March 05, 2009 07:59 AM (jAos7)
PARTNERSHIP OF PURPOSE = SCARY
I never really bought into the idea that it was better to have Obama as president and be in the vocal opposition than to have RINO McCain in office. I have been scared of irreversible policy changes. And this partnering with the global community, crippling us while helping them, is one of them:
British Prime Minister Gordon Brown will discuss global financial supervision and coordinated measures to support the economy with US President Barack Obama this week.
Brown will become the first European leader to meet the US president on Tuesday, since Obama’s inauguration. “I believe there is no challenge so great or so difficult that it cannot be overcome by US, Britain and the world working together,” Brown wrote in the Sunday Times.
“That is why President Obama and I will discuss this week a global new deal, whose impact can stretch from the villages of Africa to reforming the financial institutions of London and New York, and giving security to the hard-working families in every country.”
Brown said the two countries’ “partnership of purpose” should be directed at fighting the economic downturn as well as terrorism, poverty and disease. Britain is keen to get US support for the bold aims of a G20 summit on April 2.
Every word in this short article makes me shudder.
-- I don't want my country to promise to give security to families in every country.
-- I don't want even more American tax dollars to fight poverty and disease in other countries.
-- I don't want an American New Deal, much less a Global New Deal. Ugh, I can't stand the word global.
1
On this matter, I'm actually not worried, as Obama dissed Brown bigtime today (no joint press conference, no appearance with spouses, etc). Brown is scrambling to look important, but this is the second time Obama has smacked Great Britain; I don't see them working together much, frankly.
SALSA FAIL
Rachel Lucas' encounter with British salsa reminded me of our adventure eating at a "Mexican" restaurant in Germany. And those scare quotes are definitely needed. My husband ordered something like enchiladas and it came covered in European salsa, which he tasted and then remarked, "Um, this is marinara." I'll be darned if it wasn't. Straight up marinara on top of enchiladas. Oy.
1
Well, it's red. It's sauce. Right?
I had to learn to make my own tortillas when we lived in New Hampshire. Some things are just that important.
Posted by: airforcewife at March 03, 2009 07:04 AM (Fb2PC)
2
Even though I lived within walking distance of a Taco Bell as a kid in Hawaii, I have no idea what you are talking about. It's funny ... I can spell food names, but I wouldn't recognize the actual items.
Nonetheless, I can still relate to your point. When I first visited Japan in 1986, I ate at a quasi-American fast food restaurant at the beginning and at a pizza place toward the end. I have never eaten anything Western in Japan since (except for a steak at a high class restaurant - my first host family thought I'd like it, and I did). It costs too much and tastes worse. Besides, what's the point of eating American food in Japan?
PS: I now see that you've perfectly replicated Rachel Lucas' style! I can't bear to draw deliberately shaky lines on a photo.
Posted by: Amritas at March 03, 2009 07:33 AM (+nV09)
THIS IS TOO HARD
I don't know if I can take this. My heart hurts:
When I wrote the other day about bearing my burden while my husband is at SERE, I had no idea that the scales would tip towards him so quickly. He has begun his last week of the class, which means he's at the "practical application" point of survival, evasion, resistance, and escape. And my heart hurts so bad for him because it's been pouring rain. Just pouring. And they're forecasting snow for tomorrow.
I know my husband is a tough guy and that he'll figure out how to get through this week, but there is nothing that hurts me more than the thought of him suffering. I've sat here all weekend in my warm house with my electric blanket, and the sound of the unrelenting rain is just killing me.
It makes me cry to picture him trying to survive outside in this weather. It is a far heavier burden than anything happening to me.
The sound of that rain is just paralyzing me. It makes me sick. It makes me want to go find where is he is rescue him.
I can't stop worrying about him.
It's a different form of the agony of the unknown that we feel when we stand and wait.
1
I would call this the agony of the known. You knew what he was getting into, long before the rain started. And now every time you look out your window, you can see the conditions tormenting him. They are concrete, whereas the Middle East was abstract. We're still cavepeople who are more moved by what we see with our own eyes. We can close them, but we can't forget ... especially not when we feel cold ... and when you knit things that will keep others warm.
I hope thoughts of you are keeping him warm.
Posted by: Amritas at March 01, 2009 08:23 AM (Wxe3L)
2
That is the thing about worry, it makes things worse. Now you must imagine him as strong and capable and taking care of the situation and I hope that is working well for him. Just keep thinking, he is prepared, he knows what to do. He can handle this. And yes, it is by far, worse than what you are going through but it will be over and he knows when that will be.
Posted by: Ruth H at March 01, 2009 10:21 AM (4u82p)
3
I haven't been here, but I can relate what you're saying to other places I have been--and I'm very sorry. Wish there was something better than that to say. . . .
Posted by: Lucy at March 01, 2009 02:05 PM (HGFog)
4
He has chosen this to make him stronger - and it will. Even as you are sad, I know you are simultaneously proud as you should be. I hope he never needs to use what he learns there, but if he does, it will have been time and effort well spent.
With all the craziness happening in the world, politics, and economics, it encourages me to think of the two of you as part of our next generation.
Posted by: MaryIndiana at March 02, 2009 02:05 PM (XWWz+)
6
Thank goodness I was rather oblivious when flyboy went years ago, but the wondering and waiting does bite. big time. I know remembering that this makes him a tougher warrior doesnt help right at this moment but I betcha when he comes home he's going to remember it pretty fondly. At some point... maybe not right away!
Posted by: the mrs. at March 03, 2009 04:48 AM (NJQf+)
7
Aw heck... it'll give him great stories to tell and quite honestly, they're not going to let him have an untimely demise.
Me... I'm bad. I'd be snuggled up under extra blankets and would later tell him I kept EXTRA warm for him
Posted by: Meadowlark at March 03, 2009 11:49 AM (SXBsQ)
1
Who's stalking whom? One day there'll be some AWTM/Grok fan you've never heard of who wants a picture of himself with you two.
At least you've both heard of me. Maybe I can be in the middle someday.
Posted by: Amritas at March 01, 2009 08:26 AM (Wxe3L)
2
This is one of funniest, and most hilarious nights ever...and I think it is great I have proof, of how goofy Sarah and I are...
I like being goofy, even when I am accusessed by a commenter of being Sarah's Mom...
Posted by: AWTM at March 01, 2009 10:28 AM (zGVWd)
3
I love this photo!
AWTM, I know what you mean, but I'd be honored if someone told me I was Sarah's relative!
Posted by: Amritas at March 01, 2009 01:52 PM (Wxe3L)
Instead, no sooner had he finished describing his plans for spurring an economic recovery and shoring up the crippled automotive and banking industries than he was off to the races, outlining his ambitions for overhauling energy, health care and education policy.
The House chamber was filled with veteran legislators who have spent decades wrestling with those issues. They know how maddeningly difficult it has been to cobble together a coalition large enough to pass a significant education, health care or energy bill.
And here stood Obama, challenging them to do all three, at a time when trillions of borrowed dollars already have been committed to short-term economic rescue schemes and when new taxes risk stunting any recovery.
Is he naive?
There's a simple answer to that last rhetorical question.
(My husband and I love making that goofy face and answering obvious questions with that stupid uh-huh. It was the first thing I thought of when I read that absurd article.)
1
So complex no government can control it.
I wouldn't call this a gamble. The outcome is certain.
The House chamber was filled with veteran legislators who have spent decades wrestling with those issues. They know how maddeningly difficult it has been to cobble together a coalition large enough to pass a significant education, health care or energy bill.
They may have "spent decades" talking about those issues, and they may understand them better than Obama does, but does that really qualify them to make decisions about them? Very few can truly be experts in education, medicine, and energy at the same time. How many polymaths are in office?
My guess is few to none. Voters reject the best and brightest in favor of the most charismatic. Elections are just popularity contests. And politicians with star power constantly acquire more real power over their cheering audience. Those of us who cannot clap for our Great Leaders can only wonder ... why?
Posted by: Amritas at March 01, 2009 08:41 AM (Wxe3L)
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The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
--Winston Churchill--
A man or a nation is not placed upon this earth to do merely what is pleasant and what is profitable. It is often called upon to carry out what is both unpleasant and unprofitable, but if it is obviously right it is mere shirking not to undertake it. --Arthur Conan Doyle--
A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself. --John Stuart Mill--
After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." --Dave Grossman--
At heart I’m a cowboy; my attitude is if they’re not going to stand up and fight for what they believe in then they can go pound sand. --Bill Whittle--
A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. --Alexander Tyler--
By that time a village half-wit could see what generations of professors had pretended not to notice. --Atlas Shrugged--
I kept asking Clarence why our world seemed to be collapsing and everything seemed so shitty. And he'd say, "That's the way it goes, but don't forget, it goes the other way too." --Alabama Worley--
So Bush is history, and we have a new president who promises to heal the planet, and yet the jihadists don’t seem to have got the Obama message that there are no enemies, just friends we haven’t yet held talks without preconditions with.
--Mark Steyn--
"I had started alone in this journey called life, people started
gathering up on the way, and the caravan got bigger everyday." --Urdu couplet
The book and the sword are the two things that control the world. We either gonna control them through knowledge and influence their minds, or we gonna bring the sword and take their heads off. --RZA--
It's a daily game of public Frogger, hopping frantically to avoid being crushed under the weight of your own narcissism, banality, and plain old stupidity. --Mary Katharine Ham--
There are more instances of the abridgment of freedoms
of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. --James Madison--
It is in the heat of emotion that good people must remember to stand on principle. --Larry Elder--
Please show this to the president and ask him to remember the wishes of the forgotten man, that is, the one who dared to vote against him. We expect to be tramped on but we do wish the stepping would be a little less hard. --from a letter to Eleanor Roosevelt--
The world economy depends every day on some engineer, farmer, architect, radiator shop owner, truck driver or plumber getting up at 5AM, going to work, toiling hard, and producing real wealth so that an array of bureaucrats, regulators, and redistributors can manage the proper allotment of much of the natural largess produced. --VDH--
Parents are often so busy with the physical rearing of children that they miss the glory of parenthood, just as the grandeur of the trees is lost when raking leaves. --Marcelene Cox--
