GAFFES
I liked this round-up of Obama gaffes. Shoot, even I know the difference between Sanford and Son and The Jeffersons. And I never watched either show growing up.
But this one from back in May I hadn't heard yet, and it's a doozy:
In Cape Girardeau, Missouri, Obama showed off his knowledge of the war in Afghanistan by honing in on a lack of translators: “We only have a certain number of them and if they are all in Iraq, then it’s harder for us to use them in Afghanistan.” The real reason it’s “harder for us to use them” in Afghanistan: Iraqis speak Arabic or Kurdish. The Afghanis speak Pashto, Farsi, or other non-Arabic languages.
You know, twice in the past week or so, I have made jokes about how $600 couldn't even buy earrings, and nobody got it. Once I explained, they were shocked that Michelle Obama had said such a thing. But they hadn't heard about it before I mentioned it.
1
Tell me about it. Many people go on and on about the $150K in clothes for Palin and her family (which she didn't spend, but somehow gets blamed for), but have no idea about Michelle's comment to Ohio mothers about feeling their pain and the $10K the Obamas spend a year on after-school activities for their girls...
Posted by: CaliValleyGirl at October 30, 2008 10:06 AM (irIko)
2
I watched both Sanford and Son and The Jeffersons growing up. I read Obama's quote and knew right away that "Weezie" was wrong, but I couldn't remember the right name. I only recalled that it began with "El." Granted, I watched a lot less Sanford than Jeffersons, but still ... I'll give Obama a pass on this one. Old sitcoms are a lot less important than some of the other things Malkin mentioned.
I can guess why that translator gaffe upset you. You know why it upsets me.
I hadn't heard about the $600 earrings until now. Seeing Michelle Obama's exact words -
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/17/michelle-os-stimulus-package-600-earrings/
- I'm willing to give her a pass too. It's not clear whether she thinks people should be buying $600 earrings. Sounds to me like she's saying, "take your $600 and get a little something for yourself." That doesn't necessarily entail spending all six hundred dollars.
Still, I'm glad you brought up these points. "Potatoe" (sic) is still remembered after two decades. It's hard to remember what one never hears about.
Posted by: Amritas at October 30, 2008 10:48 AM (+nV09)
3
You know,I was just thinking this morning about how Dan Quayle has had to pay and pay for one little mistake but BARAK FRICKING OBAMA doesn't even know how many states there are in the U.S. and he gets a pass?
Joe Biden can't keep his foot out of his mouth yet,the MSM doesn't call him on any of it.
Whatever! I am so over Democrats lately. I normally tolerate their views and listen politely,but right now I just want to say "Are you KIDDING me? Are you REALLY this clueless?"
Rant! Sorry S!
Posted by: MaryIndiana at October 30, 2008 12:25 PM (SRyvm)
WTF?
In personal news, I have done all the normal fertility testing that they do. There's nothing wrong with me. There's nothing wrong with my husband. But we still don't have a baby. Fantastic.
1
I'm so sorry... it really stinks when the good news and the bad news are the same thing. *thoughts & prayers*
Posted by: kannie at October 30, 2008 10:47 AM (iT8dn)
2
Part of me is relieved, unless their assessment is wrong.
Part of me is alternately puzzled and frustrated.
But all of me is thinking of you.
Posted by: Amritas at October 30, 2008 10:52 AM (+nV09)
3
Do you watch mystery diagnosis? I saw something that made me think of you on it the other night. Are all blood tests normal. Anything??? Something is happening.
After all that, I just turned 72 last weekend so I can't remember what the diagnosis was!! Something about mysterious blood clots shutting off supply to the uterus.
I am in the market for a birthday Yorkie now, to replace our almost 16 Yorkie girl we lost a year ago.
I am still sure you will become a mother!
Posted by: Ruth H at October 30, 2008 01:19 PM (FAgoX)
4
Will they refer you to a specialist specialist? I'm not sure what kind of fertility doctors you're seeing but sometimes the frontline testing isn't enough to diagnose what's what. Their technical name for it? "Unexplained infertility" Lovely, right? It's like, I was under the impression that the DOCTOR would be able to explain this all...sheesh.
I'm sorry. Like someone else says it sucks when the good news and the bad news are the same thing.
I have my annual appt. with my OB/GYN soon. I'll ask him some questions...it will take my mind off him conducting his business on my business.
Posted by: Guard Wife at October 30, 2008 02:55 PM (eb8pN)
5
Sorry to hear the bummer news. Hang in there - I'll keep you both in my prayers. You'll have a baby soon!
Posted by: BigD78 at October 30, 2008 04:56 PM (PsV2e)
6
I hate to say that I feel sorry that your tests came back normal, but this is one of those cases where normal sucks. Wrong means something they can try to fix. I wish I had something to suggest but we kind of exhausted all the testing they could think of, too, and got nothing. Just focus on the fact that if they haven't found anything wrong, then nothing's wrong--meaning that things might go right just as easily.
but in the meantime, exhaust the doctors. Make them run even the weird tests, and the things that they've ruled out but because you don't seem to fit the parameters....
Posted by: Ann M. at October 31, 2008 06:59 AM (HFUBt)
7
Get a dog and devote all your attention to it. (If you have one already, rinse, and repeat.) Once it's certain that it's human and its position in the family is unshakable, you'll have a baby. It never fails.
Seriously though, I'll be praying for you.
Posted by: steven at November 02, 2008 01:46 AM (B+qrE)
1
I'm sorry to say that I never noticed Dean Barnett until you mentioned his passing. I had seen his name before in "CITIZEN OF THE WORLD," but that doesn't count.
http://tryingtogrok.mu.nu/archives/269450.html
Speaking of seeing, Lileks wrote:
You know whatÂ’s odd? I have no idea what he looked like. I have an idea, but itÂ’s probably wrong.
We can say that about a lot of our imaginary friends. It's funny, so many of us could walk past each other on the street, utterly unaware that we were on the same side in more ways than one.
I've been thinking recently that I once had no idea what you looked like, but now I feel as if I've always known.
In the blogosphere voices matter more than looks:
Again with the saccharine notion of the afterlife with the clouds and the wings and the harp: Dean walks up behind people and shouts “CHOWDAH,” and we know right away who it is.
Lileks' column could have stopped there, but it didn't.
Right now I'm trying to remember where I saw the Ennis House. Some movie I caught on cable in the early 90s, I think.
How does the suspended pipe organ player get down? If I don't like what he's playing, can I deny him the use of my ladder?
I happen to own the comic Lileks featured yesterday:
http://www.lileks.com/institute/funny/08/112.html
I got all six parts of the Star Wars adaptation back in 1977. There were no DVDs in those days.
I even bought four of the post-movie issues ("Beyond the movie! "Beyond the galaxy!"). You can see them all here:
http://comics.org/covers.lasso?SeriesID=2406
Writer Roy Thomas had to find ways to mark time before the sequel. So he teamed Han Solo with ... a green rabbit:
http://comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=31977&zoom=4
http://comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=32065&zoom=4
Posted by: Amritas at October 29, 2008 08:17 AM (+nV09)
There are, alas, many in the west for whom all this is music to their ears. Whether through wickedness, ideology, stupidity or derangement, they firmly believe that the ultimate source of conflict in the world derives at root from America and Israel, whose societies, culture and values they want to see emasculated or destroyed altogether. They are drooling at the prospect that an Obama presidency will bring that about. The rest of us canÂ’t sleep at night.
Yesterday I went to the McCain rally. We stood outside for two hours in the cold to get in, and the line was huge. It was pretty fun, clapping and booing and laughing with the crowd. Ours is a swing state, and I hope things go well for us next week. At this point, I don't know what to think.
1
That is awesome you got to go. I was hoping they would bring a rally to Illinois, but I think it would have been a lost cause on their part. I'm getting nervous but today the campaigns are within the margin of error. When Reagan won in a landslide against Jimmy Carter, at this point in the campaign Carter was up by 8 points. So I still have hope
Posted by: BigD78 at October 29, 2008 09:05 AM (W3XUk)
2
I wish I could go to sleep and wake up on Tuesday, just in time to vote (not that it'll make much of a difference in my state).
Glad to hear that you had fun at the rally!
Posted by: Susan at October 29, 2008 09:30 AM (IfQM3)
3
Sounds like fun. I went to the rally when he came out to Sea-town during the primaries, right before Romney officially dropped out. I wanted to see exactly who we were "settling for". I do have to admit; I ended up liking him much better after seeing him in person. Hope your swing state swings to the right!
Posted by: Leofwende at October 29, 2008 04:42 PM (cZoqf)
SHRUG
Blue Collar Muse has posted an excerpt from Atlas Shrugged. I have been telling myself to pull the beautiful copy that Amritas bought me from the shelf and read it again. The excerpt -- Socialism's Lying Promise -- may just prompt me to do that. But I fear it will only succeed in depressing me even further.
I also clicked through to Blue Collar Muse's old post entitled Conservatives Shrugged. I understand this struggle, this desire to shrug, and identify with the dilemma of just wanting to win so we don't have to suffer through Dems vs wanting an actual candidate who's worth a damn.
(As usual, thanks to Amritas for the links. He's been on fire lately.)
1
I found that to be a very interesting article. Something has always bugged me about McCain and I haven't been able to put my finger on it and I finally think I've got it. Its the whole electability thing. Back when the Republican primaries were heating up I thought McCain was the least compelling choice out of all the options. I didn't understand how Conservatives would want that guy as their figurehead. I mean, Romney stood for something, so did Huckabee. McCain seems to go which ever way the wind blows. The whole Palin thing spoke to the same "electability" concept (they got a black guy? Get us a woman pronto!).
I think one of the reasons Obama has caught on in the public eye is that he has an agenda that is his own - you may not like it, but its refreshing to see someone put forth something you can agree or disagree with. I felt Romney and Huckabee were doing the same thing. Clinton didn't do it (she pandered like crazy) and lost because of it. I would think that McCain is struggling because he's still telling people what he thinks they want to hear. George W certainly put his own platform out there- it was polarizing and that's why it worked.
Posted by: Sarah's Pinko Commie Friend at October 29, 2008 10:07 AM (n5dnp)
2
I have heard self-identified Conservatives and Libertarians claim they may either not vote, or actually vote for Obama, just to usher in the period of Liberal control that they feel will cause us all to turn to the right. To me, that is a poor argument to abuse your vote, and it isn't really the same situation as 'shrugging'.
Posted by: Barb at October 31, 2008 04:25 AM (T4MbB)
MEMORIAL
This deployment has been easy. Regular contact, a cushy job, and a short-ish tour. So easy, in fact, that when the phone rang unexpectedly at 4 AM last month, there was no thought in my mind that something had happened to my husband. I have managed to avoid much anticipatory grief this time around.
I attended the memorial service today. I had never met this soldier and neither had my husband, but I think we would've liked him. Actually, I know we would've liked him based on one thing that was mentioned during the service: his nickname for his wife was Sparta 6.
When you sit there in a memorial service, and you look at all the photos of the soldier and hear the eulogies, you can't help but imagine what people would say about your own husband. How would they describe him? What photos capture who he is? Would a fellow soldier swallow back tears while speaking about my husband?
I had managed to avoid thinking about my husband's mortality too much this time around. But today was a reminder that he will be leaving again next year, likely as a team leader. He will be back in the thick of things.
You know, it does horrible things to your heart to sit back on the homefront and watch other people's husbands die...
HMMMM
Now this might be an explanation for something that's puzzled me for a long time.
Second, if ever you've been amazed when you heard people on the left say that mainstream liberal media outlets such as the New York Times are not liberal but "conservative," Obama's remarks about the Warren Court reveal where such people are really coming from. The reason they regard the mainstream media as "conservative" is that the mainstream media do not advocate the overthrowing of the U.S. Constitution, of free enterprise, and of property rights--and those are the things that true leftists/progressives, such as Obama, seek.
1
Nonsense. The media is almost all owned by large profit-driven corporations. That is why they are right of center. You've probably never even listened to left-wing media. Tune in to Democracy Now! if you want to actually hear from the left.
Those of us who are truly left--as I am--seek to enforce the Constitution (e.g., suspension of habeas corpus by Bush admin) not overturn it; to regulate the free market for just the reasons that have put this country into the financial bind it is in; and that "property rights" claim, doesn't even make sense.
What makes you people think that you can see into peoples true motivations? You can't; you get it wrong every time.
Posted by: PensiveGadfly at October 28, 2008 06:06 AM (6VhMY)
2
Ah, the "owned by corporations" argument. Because obviously, all corporations are right-leaning. All.
The entire mainstream media (aside from maybe FOX) is left-leaning, even by their own admission. So it's pretty hard to avoid it completely. The people who call mainstream media "conservative" are the same people that are so far to the left that anything short of socialism would be considered "right-leaning" from where they stand.
And the above commenter apparently hasn't really done her research on the market troubles we're having. The dems (Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, etc), were into it deeper than anyone, and they (and others like them) were the ones insisting upon keeping Fannie and Freddie deregulated so that they could have their cake and eat it, too. They were the ones encouraging, even pushing, banks and mortgage companies to make high-risk subprime loans to "low-income" folks; people who obviously couldn't afford them. And that (along with an unhealthy dose of speculation by way of credit default swaps) is what got our economy where we are today, down from its highs the last few years.
And she finishes with a lovely little bit of not-quite-righteous indignation, in hopes of making "you people" feel guilty for "misinterpreting" her intentions (and apparently everyone else's, since all "true" leftists agree with her. Hmm...I rather doubt that, especially based on Obama's remarks about the Warren court not being radical enough becuase it didn't get past the essential constraints of the constitution. Oh, and what he said about how it's a shame that the constitution says things that the government "shouldn't" do, but says nothing about what the government "must" do in terms of benefits for the populace. Ugh. I much prefer my government limited, thank you.
Posted by: Emily at October 28, 2008 06:59 AM (jAos7)
3
1. Habeas corpus does not apply to lawful combatants, much less unlawful ones.
2. So you're going to "regulate" the Democrats who were behind Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae due to all the damage their shenanigans did to the economy?
Oh wait, am I wrecking some of your talking points? My bad.
Ah yes, forgot one: if media corporations are "center-right" and "profit-driven" why do papers like the New York Times keep posting the most leftist drek... despite losing lots of money in sales?
Posted by: Patrick Chester at October 28, 2008 07:00 AM (MOvul)
4
Sarah,
Thanks for posting two items in two days from me!
As a former leftist radical who has studied Communist countries for many years, I've never had any problem understanding why the American media are "conservative." Compared to Rodong Sinmun, the New York Times is a paragon of conservatism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodong_Sinmun
You can read daily samples of North Korean journalism in English by the Korean Central News Agency (Google it).
The Korean Central News Agency is most certainly not a profit-driven corporation.
"Left" and "right" are relative terms, and hence there is no consensus on where the "center" is. The mainstream media is clearly to the right of the Korean Central News Agency, but it is also to the left of most readers of this site. So is the MSM "right" or "left"? In the American context where the extreme left is marginal, I would say that the MSM is "left." But in a global context, it may be "right." And in a Communist context, it is "right."
Posted by: Amritas at October 28, 2008 07:49 AM (+nV09)
5
TTG -
Thanks for the links! Seems I owe Amritas some thanks as well but I can't find a site where s/he links to me to do so. Perhaps saying "Thanks" here will suffice.
On topic for the thread, let me just add that, as Amritas, notes - Left and Right are relative.
Jonah Goldberg notes in his excellent book, 'Liberal Fascism', that the reason Fascism is generally considered 'Right Wing' is not because it is but because the Left SAYS it is.
And from their perspective, it's true. During the struggle to define Fascism as separate from Socialism and Communism, Socialists and Communists moved even further Left and started pointing fingers back at the Fascists, to their Right!
Thus Fascism, if you ask Socialists, IS a Right Wing ideology. For the rest of the world, however, and as noted by Goldberg, Fascism is as Left wing as they come.
This applies to this thread in that Fascism, in particular and Socialism as generally practiced in this country, are not at total odds with the idea of corporations and profits and such. Odd as that sounds, they not only want, but NEED, the revenue generated by corporate America. The corporations, on the other hand, willingly climb in bed with Government to preserve their own positions and so complete the circle.
For just one example, look into how many corporations use the power of Government to limit their competition. How is this Right Wing or Free Market? The notion that any profit making entity is automatically Free Market or Right Wing is laughable. It may be, but there is no requirement that it be.
I highly recommend Goldberg's book if you haven't read it. He has an entire chapter on the subject.
Thanks again for the link love!
Blue
Posted by: Blue Collar Muse at October 29, 2008 05:02 AM (/4KCi)
I have been off the internet for a couple of days, but so much has come out. This Syria thing is huge, and a plot to assassinate Obama. And this 2001 tape of Obama that's out? Whittle says it all:
We have, in our storied history, elected Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives and moderates. We have fought, and will continue to fight, pitched battles about how best to govern this nation. But we have never, ever in our 232-year history, elected a president who so completely and openly opposed the idea of limited government, the absolute cornerstone of makes the United States of America unique and exceptional.
If this does not frighten you — regardless of your political affiliation — then you deserve what this man will deliver with both houses of Congress, a filibuster-proof Senate, and, to quote Senator Obama again, “a righteous wind at our backs.”
Posted by: HomefrontSix at October 27, 2008 02:55 PM (4Es1w)
2
And I quote, "these are the times that try men's souls." I hope and pray our country comes out as well from these trying times as it has in the past.
Posted by: Ruth H at October 27, 2008 05:45 PM (FAgoX)
3
What about FDR?
And yes, I am not frightened of Obama at all, I welcome his Presidency.
Now, for fun, write down your five top predictions of the horrors that I will "deserve." If Obama wins, we'll come back if 3 or 4 years to see how you've done.
Posted by: PensiveGadfly at October 28, 2008 06:09 AM (6VhMY)
I'M A COUGAR AND I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT
So there's a stock boy at my new job -- I'm gonna peg him at about 18 years old -- who I suspect has a crush on me. Last week he followed me all around the store, gave me a "how you doin'?", and wanted to know how old I am. The look on his face was priceless when I told him. And I figured that would be the end of it, but today he asked me if my band is just a ring or if I'm married.
I've probably been married since he was in middle school.
One of the girls at work says that makes me a cougar.
You know, when I was 16, I worked at a concert arena. I was one of the only females, and I was a good 30 years younger than most people working there. I can't tell you how many times gross 23-year-old roadies would come on to me. I used to get so annoyed at the unwanted attention at work.
And now, shoot, I want to hug this kid.
It has been years since someone has shown an interest in me. It is sincerely the most flattering thing that's happened in a long time. I am just tickled pink that this kid even remotely thought it would be appropriate for me to talk to him. I have been giggling all day.
1
I only recently figured out what "cougar" means. I had been puzzled by Saturday Night Live's "Cougar Den" skits.
SNL could use another guest star named Sarah. Lorne Michaels, are you listening?
Posted by: Amritas at October 27, 2008 11:43 AM (+nV09)
2
poor kid, he actually probably thought about this long and hard, before approaching you....
You are still far to young to be a cougar, I also think cougars prey on the young, which I am very doubtful is what is occurring.
I think this is a case of being "hawt".
Posted by: AWTM at October 27, 2008 12:12 PM (skcC5)
3"You are still far to young to be a cougar"
Definitely. She'd need a lot of makeup to join that SNL skit.
I also think cougars prey on the young, which I am very doubtful is what is occurring.
That is most certainly not occurring! (Guard Wife's cash register rings again.)
Seriusly, I agree with your assessment of the situation.
Posted by: Amritas at October 27, 2008 12:46 PM (+nV09)
4
Ha, well...as flattering as it is, I am certainly not encouraging him. So you're right that I'm not technically a cougar. Heh.
Posted by: Sarah at October 27, 2008 01:34 PM (TWet1)
5
No no no,S. You are not a cougar. Cougars go AFTER the younger men. Predatory.
When they come after you it is just cool as hell.
Posted by: MaryIndiana at October 27, 2008 05:04 PM (SRyvm)
SEND YOUR LOVE
Tim's wife, whom we all know as CPT Patti, was admitted to the hospital. They still aren't entirely sure what's wrong with her. I thought maybe some of you old-schoolers could leave some encouraging comments here for her so she can read them when she gets computer access. Hang in there, Patti. We know you're tough!
Posted by: Susan at October 27, 2008 05:36 AM (4aKG6)
2
Patti,
You made it through Iraq, and I hope you make it through this. My thoughts are with you and your husband.
Tim,
Thank you for blogging about "the sweetest woman on the planet." Sarah led me to your blog which I followed to the end four years ago. That chapter is over, but your story isn't. May there be many more chapters.
Posted by: Amritas at October 27, 2008 07:40 AM (+nV09)
3
Patti - I hope you get well soon!
Tim - hang in there! My thoughts are with both of you.
~Bryan
Posted by: Bryan Strawser at October 27, 2008 02:25 PM (n05cZ)
4
Patti ~ Our prayers are with you and your family.
Posted by: HomefrontSix at October 27, 2008 02:57 PM (4Es1w)
JFK ON TAXES
I'm re-reading Larry Elder's The Ten Things You Can't Say In America, and I came across a timely point:
An economics major in college, Reagan further argued that lowering taxes would increase money coming into federal coffers because it kick starts people into working harder, smarter, and with less need to conceal income.
But guess who else felt that way? JFK. That's right, JFK. In the December 24, 1962, issue of US News and World Report, "Kennedy's Latest Word on Tax Cuts, Plans for Business," in urging a tax cut, Kennedy said that "it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low -- and the soundest way to raise revenues in the long run is to cut rates now.
"The experience of a number of European countries has borne this out. This country's own experience with tax reductions in 1954 has borne this out, and the reason is that only full employment can balance the budget -- and tax reduction can pave the way to full employment. The purpose of cutting taxes now is not to incur a budgetary deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous expanding economy which will bring a budgetary surplus."
1
Not at all, especially if you look at how aggressive Kennedy was in his views on national defense. It frustrates me to hear people compare today's liberals with JFK because the worldviews seem quite different.
Posted by: Nicole at October 26, 2008 11:11 AM (xPxyx)
2
Yeah, there's a big difference. Kennedy was not a socialist.
Posted by: Emily at October 27, 2008 07:56 AM (jAos7)
3
Sarah, I've got that book too, although I was nervous every time I read it on the Commuter Rail into Boston. Very interesting, very well-written.
An interesting aside -- an old college roomie was visiting me from NYC. She saw the book, with its "Special Discount bin" sticker (bought it at a university bookstore), and immediately said, "No wonder his book can only sell for two dollars, serves him right and I hope he starves to death." Ahhhh, liberal care and compassion . . .
Posted by: Lissa at October 27, 2008 08:02 AM (fHdl7)
What happens when the voter in the exact middle of the earnings spectrum receives more in benefits from Washington than he pays in taxes? Economists Allan Meltzer and Scott Richard posed this question 27 years ago. We may soon enough know the answer.
Barack Obama is offering voters strong incentives to support higher taxes and bigger government. This could be the magic income-redistribution formula Democrats have long sought.
Sen. Obama is promising $500 and $1,000 gift-wrapped packets of money in the form of refundable tax credits. These will shift the tax demographics to the tipping point where half of all voters will receive a cash windfall from Washington and an overwhelming majority will gain from tax hikes and more government spending.
In 2006, the latest year for which we have Census data, 220 million Americans were eligible to vote and 89 million -- 40% -- paid no income taxes. According to the Tax Policy Center (a joint venture of the Brookings Institution and the Urban Institute), this will jump to 49% when Mr. Obama's cash credits remove 18 million more voters from the tax rolls. What's more, there are an additional 24 million taxpayers (11% of the electorate) who will pay a minimal amount of income taxes -- less than 5% of their income and less than $1,000 annually.
In all, three out of every five voters will pay little or nothing in income taxes under Mr. Obama's plans and gain when taxes rise on the 40% that already pays 95% of income tax revenues.
And we have Barney Frank saying outrageous things like this:
I believe later on there should be tax increases. Speaking personally, I think there are a lot of very rich people out there whom we can tax at a point down the road and recover some of the money.
I put up a quote from Neal Boortz's piece To the Undecided Voter about how democracy fails when the scales tip and people can vote themselves more money. Andy McCarthy received a similar quote from this blog's namesake, Robert Heinlein.
A perfect democracy, a "warm body" democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction.... [O]nce a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader — the barbarians enter Rome.
1
I've always thought that Starship Troopers had a good plan for government...
Posted by: airforcewife at October 24, 2008 09:02 AM (mIbWn)
2
Will -- According to reality, social security, Medicare, and education each outspend defense spending.
Posted by: Sarah at October 25, 2008 04:18 AM (TWet1)
3
I thought the movie was a horrible parody of the book--maybe this is what you are thinking of.
Heinlein's other contemporary writings made it pretty clear that he was not making a mockery of the ideas in the novel. Later in life, he did become very liberal; in his memoirs, Isaac Asimov attributed the change to Heinlein's second wife.
In light of how shackled our "merchant class" has become (do you know any small business owners?), the "nation of merchants" line is a pretty funny one.
Sig
Posted by: Sig at October 25, 2008 06:26 AM (QBXJR)
4
Will wrote:
Honestly airfocemilf? Honestly? You realize that Starship Troopers was a satire of facism... right..?
Nope. Heinlein wrote it mainly to write a story about the PBI, the Poor Bloody Infantry. Maybe it would help to read the book and essays he wrote about it.
Though honestly, I think the government in the novel is practical only via author fiat. It is a bit obvious from the origin given for the Federation in the novel.
The movie was written by people who didn't bother to let what was actually in the novel get in the way of their preconceived notions. Hey, like you!
Posted by: Patrick Chester at October 25, 2008 07:52 AM (MOvul)
Interesting postscript to the cheeseburger story. Tonight when the webcam pops up, there's my husband, ceremoniously eating a cheeseburger on camera. With this devilish, I'll-show-you look on his face. We both cracked up.
I love how he can turn something irritating into something endearing.
1
I don't think anyone expects unbiased truth from the media, except the media themselves, who claim to be providing it. It is the profound dishonesty that offends so many.
You are unlikely to get a beer with Mr. Card, sorry to say, as I'm 99% sure he is LDS. =)
Posted by: Sig at October 22, 2008 03:38 AM (n369L)
2
Oh yeah, crap Sig...I did know that.
OK, a milkshake
Posted by: Sarah at October 22, 2008 03:56 AM (TWet1)
3
trr is the poster child for the Democrat Party, expect nothing and care even less about the consequences. Hell, considering their track record of failed policies, (the top ten poorest cities are run by DÂ’s), it all makes perfect sense.
Also, thanks for enlightening me on the reasoning behind ObamaÂ’s support. Just take away reason and accountability from the average personÂ…and youÂ’ll find some of that Hope/Change.
You couldnÂ’t be a more perfect example of why IÂ’m a Republican. Thanks.
And who you trying to kid, you donÂ’t drink beer, you reek of w(h)ine.
Posted by: tim at October 22, 2008 08:41 AM (nno0f)
4
Hi Tim,
Tasty personal attack! I highly doubt that I'm the Democratic posterchild. Truthfully I don't feel that my beliefs are all that different from the average Republican's. I'm all for gun rights and pro life, and whatever talking points you want to throw out there. Having said that, I'd like to address your comment about "expecting nothing" and "not caring about the consequences." I'll stand by not expecting much from a Presidential candidate for a number of reasons. First, the Presidents is in Washington and I live in middle America. If I want change in middle America I should be doing something about it here, not expecting Washington to do it for me. While I should be able to trust that positivity will come (and let's be honest, it did from Clinton, it did from Bush, it will from McCain or Obama) I don't expect the person in the chair to set the tone for the direction my life and affairs will take. So, in essence, I think I take alot of responsibility for my own consequences and that which I have influence over.
This is what I don't get - the bile on both sides and the willingness to attach so vehemently. Right now, I think its bad for either party to control all 3 branches. I think this country requires both viewpoints, as neither is all the way correct. The Republican agenda generally has alot of good things going for it and a few black marks (in my opinion) that I can't square with. Having said that, often I vote D based on what I expect the candidate to actually accomplish as opposed to the ideology involved. Different strokes for different folks. I can foresee a day where the issue that I support the D's for to be "handled" to my satisfaction and I might very well vote R with a clear conscience.
Oh, and you're right, I'm not a beer drinker, or even a w(h)ine drinker as you suggested. I can't handle much more than a diet caffeine-free Dr. Pepper being such a weak-willed lefty and all. (Insert jokey emoticon here)
- trr
Posted by: Sarah's Pinko Commie Friend at October 22, 2008 11:48 AM (n5dnp)
5
“I'm all for gun rights and pro life, and whatever talking points you want to throw out there.”
So to you, the 2nd Amendment and the rights of an unborn child are merely “talking points”? I’d say they are just a tad more than that and evidently above your pay grade.
“I'll stand by not expecting much from a Presidential candidate for a number of reasons.
First, the Presidents is in Washington and I live in middle America. If I want change in middle America I should be doing something about it here, not expecting Washington to do it for me.”
So you can’t comprehend that what happens in Washington actually affects and has the potential to change your life ALL the way over in “Middle America”?
So when Pres. Obama, (no, I’m not conceding), in Washington, raising taxes, and he will, you won’t be affected ‘cause your WAY over there?
While I commend you on you attitude of “not expecting Washington to do it for me” I don’t see the correlation to your (incorrect) theory that what happens in Washington stays in Washington. Can I assume you’ve heard of the Supreme Court? By they way, the next president will probably appoint 4/5 new justices. Though don’t worry, what they decide won’t affect anything where you live.
“While I should be able to trust that positivity will come (and let's be honest, it did from Clinton, it did from Bush, it will from McCain or Obama)”
It would depend on what you mean by positivity and since thatÂ’s seems to be such a broad term, IÂ’ll let that one go.
“I don't expect the person in the chair to set the tone for the direction my life and affairs will take.”
I donÂ’t know anybody who believes otherwise. So again, youÂ’re mixing apples and oranges.
“So, in essence, I think I take alot of responsibility for my own consequences and that which I have influence over.”
Tell me again why youÂ’re a DemocratÂ…
“This is what I don't get - the bile on both sides and the willingness to attach so vehemently.”
I donÂ’t have a problem with our politicians being passionate about the views and principles they hold. Hell, I want them to be. Their jobs involve serious issues that impact us all, well not you apparently, and have the potential to impact us in various ways.
But lying, conniving and being untruthful are unacceptable, yes. And IÂ’m not a fan of nuanced, double speak that is favored by lawyers like the ObamaÂ’s , ClintonÂ’s and the EdwardÂ’s.
“The Republican agenda generally has alot of good things going for it and a few black marks (in my opinion) that I can't square with.”
And so youÂ’re a Democrat becauseÂ…
“Having said that, often I vote D based on what I expect the candidate to actually accomplish as opposed to the ideology involved.”
I donÂ’t see how a candidate will meet you expectations without relying on their ideology, that being their beliefs and ideas? What else is left, Hope/Change?
Though I guess since you don’t expect “much from a Presidential candidate” I can see why you’re a Democrat and why no doubt you’ll be voting for Obama. ‘The Democrat Party –expect nothing, ‘cause that’s what we deliver.’
“I can foresee a day where the issue that I support the D's for to be "handled" to my satisfaction and I might very well vote R with a clear conscience.”
WTF are you trying to say?
You need to figure out what you believe in and pick a party that honors those beliefs. To say youÂ’re confused about which party represents your views is a major understatement. It doesnÂ’t make you a bad person, IÂ’m just sayinÂ’Â…
Posted by: tim at October 23, 2008 07:15 AM (nno0f)
6
Ok, here we go.
"So to you, the 2nd Amendment and the rights of an unborn child are merely “talking points”? I’d say they are just a tad more than that and evidently above your pay grade."
Comments about my pay grade notwithstanding my point was that I don't blindly commit to either party's ideology. some things I think the dems have "right" some things the Republicans have better.
"So you can’t comprehend that what happens in Washington actually affects and has the potential to change your life ALL the way over in “Middle America”?"
I can comprehend it just fine, its just that the only influence I have is a voice every few years. Therefore I don't sweat it, I deal with what comes and take responsibility for what I can control.
"Tell me again why you’re a Democrat…"
Never claimed to be one. Often I vote Dem. Sometimes I might not. I vote the candidate and what I expect them to be able to control as neither party has it all right and I don't feel obligated to throw in my lot with either.
"I don’t see how a candidate will meet you expectations without relying on their ideology, that being their beliefs and ideas? What else is left, Hope/Change?"
My expectations are don't embarass me, don't get me killed, and leave it better than you found it. Their ideology certainly matters, but doesnt set the tone since there are other branches of government that influence what legislation is passed. The president is one cog in the wheel - important to be sure, but not he end-all and be all. I don't want either party in control of all 3 branches, therefore sometimes I like the pres to be a Dem and sometimes not.
"WTF are you trying to say?"
What I mean is that I support the Dem agenda when it comes to ending abstinence-only sex-ed, gay rights, a diminshing of pandering to the religious right, etc. That's how I feel and I respect that others feel differently. There are some things that I expect to be addressed as time goes on. The Dems seem to be more about enforcing a perceived equality. On certain issues, I think we still need that approach. On others (affirmative action for instance) I think we need to rely on the fact that opportunity does exist rather than trying to force it.
"You need to figure out what you believe in and pick a party that honors those beliefs. To say you’re confused about which party represents your views is a major understatement. It doesn’t make you a bad person, I’m just sayin’…"
I know exactly what I believe in. And I'm not confised about which party represents my views because neither does a very good job of representing me. I will say this - the politics of the last few years have promoted the idea that each person should be able to be summed up by adherance to one party's ideology or the other. I just disagree with this. Some Democratic policies make me very uncomfortable.
redistribution of wealth for instance - I run a business and I want to keep my money! How about socialized health care? I really don't think that's going to solve anything. But as I said before there are a few things that the Republican ticket promotes that I don't buy into. Ergo, I may be represented by either party or neither, but don't try to sell me that I have to cast my lot with one other. I think its rather dismissive to judge someone as confused because they don't feel that their beliefs align perfectly with a given party.
At any rate, I appreciate your response. I realize that I probably don't hold that same values as many of Sarah's loyal readers. Having said that, I can admit that the views expressed on this blog have helped to shape my own beliefs, and I hope that the "other side of the aisle" can see the why there are differing opinions.
- trr
Posted by: Sarah's pinko commie firend at October 23, 2008 01:06 PM (xAF2d)
7
*eating popcorn*
I come here today to watch the intellectual volley between Tim, and the Pinko
Posted by: awtm at October 24, 2008 06:00 AM (skcC5)
8
Well, I donÂ’t want to disappoint awtmÂ…the popcorn smells greatÂ…
“I don't blindly commit to either party's ideology.”
DidnÂ’t expect you too, I donÂ’t. I suspect most people donÂ’t.
“…, its just that the only influence I have is a voice every few years. Therefore I don't sweat it, I deal with what comes and take responsibility for what I can control.”
No, you only have one vote. You can influence people with your words and actions and do I dare say, you can join a party and/or an organization(s) (NFIB, US Chamber of Commerce, etc.) that best represents your views and values.
“Often I vote Dem.”
That would make a Dem.
“What I mean is that I support the Dem agenda when it comes to ending abstinence-only sex-ed, gay rights, a diminshing of pandering to the religious right, etc.”
Sex-Ed in the late 70Â’s was NOT abstinence-only sex-ed so I doubt it is now.
Gays donÂ’t have rights? Really, didnÂ’t realize that. Is that so important to you, are you gay? And IÂ’m not asking derogatorily, I donÂ’t care what you or anybody does in their bedroom.
What wrong with the religious right? IÂ’m an atheist and I donÂ’t have a problem with the RÂ’s in regard to this. I hardly think they pander.
“The Dems seem to be more about enforcing a perceived equality.”
Now we’re getting to the meat of it all. The Dem’s want to take from the ‘Have’s’, people that have earned what they have, and give it to the ‘Have Nots’, people who are were they are because of no fault but their own. This is the fundamental difference between the Party’s.
“I know exactly what I believe in. And I'm not confised about which party represents my views because neither does a very good job of representing me. I will say this - the politics of the last few years have promoted the idea that each person should be able to be summed up by adherance to one party's ideology or the other. I just disagree with this.”
Most people are able to prioritize things that matter the most to them and figure out which party best represents them the best. Me, IÂ’m for national security, low taxes, less government, this are the things that make me an R. IÂ’ve always viewed people such as yourself as a lot like bisexuals- make up your freakinÂ’ mind already. If you donÂ’t belong to party how do you expect to have a voice? Last time I checked, Independents didnÂ’t have a convention, nor a candidate running for POTUS. YouÂ’re in the creek without a paddle or a chance.
“Some Democratic policies make me very uncomfortable. redistribution of wealth for instance - I run a business and I want to keep my money! How about socialized health care? I really don't think that's going to solve anything.”
Agreed, IÂ’m a small business owner myself. So youÂ’ll be voting for McCain then right? I would think this would take precedent over gay rights, sex ed. and such.
“Ergo, I may be represented by either party or neither, but don't try to sell me that I have to cast my lot with one other. I think its rather dismissive to judge someone as confused because they don't feel that their beliefs align perfectly with a given party.”
Again, most people arenÂ’t in lock step with their respective party. But most people pick a party based on what is important to them, what BEST represents their values and beliefs. I apologize for my dismissiveness and it seems we have more in common than not.
Anyways good chatting with yaÂ’. Sorry if my answers were too brief, time is short today and there was much, probably too much, to cover in this exchange.
Posted by: tim at October 24, 2008 11:24 AM (nno0f)
9
“As far as only having one vote, well I don't even really get that with the electoral college and all.”
Ah come on man, certainly you understand how it works, how individuals votes actually count toward the Elec. Coll., right?
“As far as national security, low taxes and small governmentare concerned I'm in agreement. I don't buy into the fact that the president is responsible for natsec”
You really donÂ’t understand what a president can and cannot do, do you?
How’s this –
“I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems. I will not weaponize space. I will slow our development of future combat systems. [snip] I will set a goal of a world without nuclear weapons. To seek that goal, I will not develop new nuclear weapons. I will seek a global ban on the production of fissile material. And I will negotiate with Russia to take our ICBM’s off hair-trigger alert.”
see here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o84PE871BE
ThatÂ’s from the man you are going to vote for. Sleep tight.
“Nevertheless I think we made the decision and we have to take the responsibility to see it through no matter how long it takes.”
Again, your man Obama wants TO GET OUT!!! Gezz, dude why the eff are you voting for a guy who is totally at odds with what you seem to value the most? Please watch the video, itsÂ’ in his own words!
And I AM trying to influence you and anyone who is reading this. Get the facts, educate yourself, donÂ’t take my word for it. Vote for the person who best represents what you determine is most important to you. More importantly donÂ’t cling to flowery words and just blindly go along with the crowd.
IÂ’m going now and bang my head against the wall, maybe then IÂ’ll understand the Hope/Change thing you people are grasping at. ARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!
Posted by: tim at October 25, 2008 09:28 AM (nno0f)
10
trr,
Chew on this-
Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) of Fannie-gate fame, announced yesterday that he wants a 25% cut in military spending.
AND (same article)-
House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks Powerful House Democrats are eyeing proposals to overhaul the nationÂ’s $3 trillion 401(k) system, including the elimination of most of the $80 billion in annual tax breaks that 401(k) investors receive.
Read it all-
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/10/it-has-begun-dem-leaders-call-for-25.html#comments
Yup, don't know why I'm a R, nope can't figure it out...
Hope/Change
Posted by: tim at October 25, 2008 09:43 AM (nno0f)
11
"Ah come on man, certainly you understand how it works, how individuals votes actually count toward the Elec. Coll., right?"
Yup, I get it, its more the issue that some folks believe in one-man-one-vote and that's not really how it works. I live in Illinois - my vote is pretty much unimportant as my state's E-votes are going to the Dems.
"You really don’t understand what a president can and cannot do, do you?"
I get it plenty - what I'm saying is that the president isn't doing the work. Budgets and all that don't worry me - like most of us the people who are tasked with taking care of us will make do with what they have. Also, the president may have an agenda, but there are 2 other branches of government to temper that agenda.
I sleep fine - our military is the most dominant on the planet. Nuclear threats don't worry me - its individuals that we have to worry about these days. This is more of a personal thing now - law enforcement and men-on-the-ground less than missle systems and what not. Are you really still worried about negotiating with Russia?
I get that he wants the pull-out and I'm not necessarily in favor of that. But don't make the mistake of presuming that you understand what I value most.
Once again the "you people" commentary is what I object to, as is your assertions that someone should pick a side and stick with it. That's the problem with the politics of the last 8 years (of which both sides are guilty). I refuse to buy into "you're either with us or against us" - look, I log into this site because Sarah is an old-school friend of mine. I don't dismiss all Republicans with judgmental commentary and empty generalizations. I genuinely feel that I understand the Republican agenda much more than I used to, and I agree with some of it. I don't buy into hope/change either. Its kinda why I've bothered to remain in this discussion - I don't think that all Republicans are war-mongering rednecks or any other silly stereotype you want to apply, nor do I think its fair to apply to the Dems (even though once again I don't consider myself a Dem).
If it had come down to say Huckabee and Clinton I would've voted Huckabee. If it had been Romney/Clinton I'd have had quite a quandry as I really don't believe in either. Ergo, I vote the sitution and not the party. Right now McCain doesn't fill me with confidence. I think he has no opinion of his own, and he's allowing a campaign to determine his future. Now before you roast me on that, Obama and any other candidate will do the same thing. I just dont feel that McCain is a guy I can trust to do the job - I trust Obama to makes speeches and deal on his feet than McCain. I trust him to make decisions better than McCain and what I have to go on is their campaigns at this point. McCain has run a scattered, pandering campaign. That's my take. I believe that Obama is the lesser of two evils at this point. Not necessarilty a desirable candidate, but I only get 2 choices.
I'd love to see Obama come in as president and see the house or senate go back to the Republicans. I would think we'd get a little more moderate decision making on the issues that you and I are concerned about (taxes, economy, security, etc).
time to put this discussion to bed yet?
Posted by: sarah's pinko commie friend at October 25, 2008 09:48 AM (C8APQ)
PRICE GOUGING
There's a story going on here in town that I simply do not understand. I thought maybe you could help me see what I'm missing.
A gas station owner has been fined $5000 for price gouging during hurricane season last month, when all the gas jumped. Most gas in town went to around $4.00, but apparently this guy was charging $5.50. And apparently he was the only one who raised his this high.
I don't see why this is illegal.
Gas is the most advertised commodity we buy. Ask anyone to tell you the price of milk or detergent, and I bet few people could do it. But everyone knows what gas costs. It's advertised on every street corner. If someone sold gas that day for $5.50, I would've had so much sticker shock that I would've kept going to the next gas station. Problem solved. If I did buy it there, well, I'm a sucker if it was $1.50 cheaper down the street.
But here's what I don't get. Let's say I own a store. I decide I want to sell a two-liter of Pepsi for $45. Is that illegal? It's stupid, but is it illegal? Is it price gouging? Is it only price gouging if there's a natural disaster?
I don't understand why this gas station owner couldn't set the price of gas at whatever he felt like. Is it because other gas stations would see his price and raise theirs? I know gas stations have price wars. Is there some regulating body that decides a price range for gas on any given day?
1
I don't know where you live. I'll say that here in Houston (aka ground zero for Hurricane Ike) that many gas stations only had enough gas for a few hours during the day, and many couldn't reopen either because of power, lack of gas in Houston, or some other hurricane related problem. Gas, when evacuating and in a distaster area is essential. Water and food as well. If I were evacuating and needed gas but had to pay $6/gallon for it because said gas station was on an evac route, I'd be pissed. With as long as it takes to get out of town during an evacuation and as overly populated as the roads are, going to the next gas station sometimes isn't an option. Many times they close so quickly that you don't know when the next opportunity will present itself. I am a firm believer in supply and demand, and market value of commodities. However, during an emergency situation essential items like food, water, gas, ice should be regulated. Otherwise we'd be paying $50 for a bag of ice, and much more than $5.50 for a gallon of gas. Yes, there is a regulating body during these crises: the national government. On a day to day basis in non-emergencies, the international market in combination with OPEC. Or at least that's what I was taught.
Posted by: Sara at October 21, 2008 01:44 PM (lS9hT)
2
Sara, I absolutely disagree with you on this. Read Thomas Sowell's writings on price "gouging", starting here. The government should never regulate these things; the market should. And the market does...that's why prices go up.
My city was nowhere near an evacuation route. There was only one gas station that raised its prices like this.
Posted by: Sarah at October 21, 2008 02:05 PM (TWet1)
3
If you believe in the invisible hand in all absoluteness, then I think you're living in the wrong era. That ship has sailed long ago. Agree with it or not, but the government has had it's hand in the economy for a while now. I surely hope you never have to evacuate, because I believe you'd be in for quite a surprise. Perhaps you have before and you were the only person who didn't complain over the situation. And normally there are only one or two gas stations that raise their prices like that. But you truely think that in emergency situations the government should do nothing to aide people? I guess I am getting the impression from you that any government institution that helps people in crisis situations is unnecessary and frivilous. Or the government both state and national. Am I misjudging you? And I'm not trying to be rude either, so I apologize if my tone is condecending or rude.
Posted by: Sara at October 21, 2008 02:25 PM (lS9hT)
4
Ok I just finished reading the article and his definitions of supply and demand make me say "well duh" and that's why I basically said above that crisis situation warrants a different economy. Again, if FEMA had used their PODs to charge people for MREs, water, and ice then people would have been paying far higher a price than normal. I guess where our difference lies is that I believe emergencies demand help and damn the free hand of the market! Sowell's example of the hotels is a mute point; if all the hotels started charging that price then that's not price gouging. Normally, price gouging would be when all the hotels remain around the same price, say a $10-20/night increase, but one decides their rooms are worth $109 or $200 or however much. Its not just an idea of things being in high demand and shorter supply. Its the total extreme of that theory, in my opinion. When you have neccessary commodities such as food, rooms,and gas there is INFINITE demand and short supply. We'd see localized hyperinflation. That's why I believe in government regulation in emergency situations; they're anomolies to the day to day laws of economic supply and demand.
Posted by: Sara at October 21, 2008 02:34 PM (lS9hT)
5
Tammi -- But that is the whole point of supply and demand. If it hadn't been worth their while, those people wouldn't have brought you wood and you would've had NO wood instead of EXPENSIVE wood. The people who were selling that wood, they were spending their own time and gas money to get it down there to sell it. They deserved to make a profit, and they were providing a good that people in the area needed and wouldn't have had if someone hadn't brought it down. That's how the market works in this situation. There's no way a guy would drive from TN to sell wood at the regular non-hurricane price. So y'all woulda been woodless.
OK, but no one is talking about this specific story that I specifically blogged about. Why did ONE gas station raise their prices and have to be punished? Is there a price you're not legally allowed to sell goods at? And why?
And for god's sake, we were NOWHERE near a hurricane. We just felt the effects of the entire nation raising prices. There was no evacuation, no shortage, no frantic run on gas.
Posted by: Sarah at October 22, 2008 02:54 AM (TWet1)
6
Sara -- Um, that article was specifically written about a crisis situation during a hurricane. Did we even read the same thing? I better check the link.
I find this comments section kinda funny, because I am used to arguing over my opinion and stuff, but this is actual economic fact. When there is more demand for things, as when people need to stock up, and the supply is low or dwindles, prices go up. And until someone else provides more supply or the crisis abates, prices are high.
If the government steps in and forces some guy to sell wood at non-crisis prices, he may as well evacuate with the masses instead of sticking around to provide that wood. It's not worth his time and effort. And no one will drive down from TN to do it either. The government will only succeed in screwing up the system if they force people to sell their goods at artificially deflated prices because of some theory of "niceness."
And "the invisible hand" is not something that can get outdated. Economics doesn't change based on what year it is.
Posted by: Sarah at October 22, 2008 03:02 AM (TWet1)
7
I'm not going to say the same thing over and over again. Yes, we did read the same article and he wrote about such general economic theories that I found most of it written for those who understand only the very basics of supply and demand. I felt he didn't introduce an original argument, and I disagree with his "opinion" of what price gouging is.
I have no idea why one gas station would raise their prices like that. If its non-emergency then I can concede I agree with you. Price gouging doesn't exist without limited supply and high demand, in my opinion. That gas station probably lost money in the long run because I'd assume most people, unless on the very last drop of gas, probably kept driving. I don't understand how that could be illegal when his likely decrease in profit was punishment enough.
And you're wrong about economics not changing with the year. Where did you study economics? Since economics is always theory, though based in math, people are always trying to improve on it. The invisible hand by itself with no government intervention is part of the 1700's-1800's. During the 1900's you see government putting its hand in economics a bit more, specifically come the 1930' and 40's. It all depends on what kind of market the economists are referring to, domestic policies or international, or definitely developmental economics. In fact, developmental economics changes a lot by each decade and affects our way of thinking about our own domestic policies. It is ridiculous to me that someone would say that the government doesn't have a hand in economics, because if you take the invisible hand theory word by word, that's its whole basis: absolutely no government intervention and I can promise you we've progressed past that. Look up the definitions of market failures and you'll see why. That doesn't mean the invisible hand doesn't still play a part in our economics today, just not in the way smith had intended when he wrote the wealth of nations.
Posted by: Sara at October 22, 2008 03:44 AM (lS9hT)
8
I never said the govt *doesn't* have a hand in economics; I say it *shouldn't.* Big difference. Yes, the govt has started intervening more and more over the last century and now it has its hands in everything. I think that's a bad thing. I also don't think it changes the basic fundamentals of economic theory. It just changes which application is in vogue and puts more variables in the system.
This was never meant to be a discussion of what should happen to prices during an emergency. But it is now, and we're not going to agree on that issue. But thanks for the second paragraph addressing this specific example. I don't understand why this gas station is being fined, if, and you assume like I do, they probably lost money in the long run.
Posted by: Sarah at October 22, 2008 04:04 AM (TWet1)
9
I can understand capping prices (though at higher than normal rates) on necessities (only) during a crisis. But I definitely agree with Sarah on the gas station in her town; the guy's profit loss should probably be punishment enough, and incentive enough for him to lower the price as soon as he realized he was losing all his customers to the competition.
I also agree with Sarah on the economics thing. We may have "progressed past that" in that the government now does have a hand in virtually everything, but that doesn't mean that that kind of "progress" is necessarily a good thing.
Sure economics is always theory, but I tend to think that there is some kind of objective truth to it. Like physics and the law of gravity, I believe there is, to at least some extent, a basic law of incentives and supply-demand that is unchanging, no matter what year it is. These rules are based upon the values of the people that the market is made up of (see the rise of "green jobs" and "eco-friendly" products in the last few years), but the basic underlying law is still there.
I, and many other people, still believe that "regressing" to a basic free market - utilizing the law of supply and demand, and various incentives to increase productivity (and not those that increase laziness, as long-term welfare and other such entitlements do) would be a good thing, whether or not it's been done before, even 200-300 years ago. Just because something is "old" does not necessarily mean that it's "bad".
I will grant you that there needs to be some regulation - minor amounts of regulation - in order to ensure that people and companies are not breaking the law, but other than that, I think that the country - and elsewhere - would see tremendous growth. A lower rate of taxation on businesses would also contribute to (a) many new businesses, and (b) the growth and expansion of current businesses, leading to greater productivity, increased employment, etc., and even at a low tax rate, would likely eventually lead to increased tax revenue over time.
Posted by: Emily at October 22, 2008 11:03 AM (jAos7)
10
So I never really comment on the wife's blog out of principle. The most ignorant tripe every written is usually done in blog comments section so I try to avoid it. This one isn't so bad so I will put my two cents in since I have some academic background in the subject.
During an emergency, like a hurricane, the supply of basic necessities like water, food and medicine will be cutoff temporarily. No trucks coming in due to all the damage to roads, downed power lines etc. So the honest person that cares about their community/humanity should want two things:
1. The available supply of goods should be used sparingly. We use just enough so everybody can have some.
2. People should be working overtime to get those needed goods to the disaster areas as fast as possible.
The quickest way for both of these things to happen is to have ridiculous high prices on the small amount that is available. If the local gas station had only 20 5 gallon jugs of water left, and they were still charging $1, I might be tempted to buy all of it to store in my basement for my family. Do I need all 20? Probably not but I might just fill my trunk just in case.
What would happen to the poor sap who came in behind me and gets no water? Sucks to be him. We could have the police/militia groups roam hurricane areas sack beating people filling their trunks with all the water...or we could let the poor bastard who runs the gas station charge me $100 a gallon and I sure as hell won't buy all 20 jugs of water. I'll probably just get one or two which would keep me, the wife and dog alive for a few days until essential services are restored.
That $100 a gallon price will definitely motivate the Culligan man two counties north who still has plenty of water. He'll pay overtime to every driver he has to ship that water as fast as he can. He'll make a buck but the supply of water will get to the people who desperately need it.
This is, as the lovely wife says, basic economics. Prices are signals. They can signal people to conserve as well as signal suppliers to provide. In reality, populist minded hoople heads are likely to burn down the gas station who was smart enough to make a buck AND ensure that his product was fairly distributed during a time of crisis. He would be a hero but he'd probably get beaten like Reginald Denny. In this specific example, the capitalist is the storyÂ’s hero. We could try to enforce fairness but Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao tried that and said it didnÂ’t work out so well.
Posted by: The Husband at October 22, 2008 11:51 AM (TWet1)
11
^^^and this makes sense to me as well.
I suppose that if a vendor raised the price of a product to such an extent that no one would/could buy it, then (a) people would go elsewhere to look for it, and (b) said vendor would not benefit from setting the price so high, and thereby, if he/she is reasonable, will lower it until people would/could pay for it.
Posted by: Emily at October 22, 2008 01:42 PM (jAos7)
12
I can't say I have a problem with price-gouging during emergencies regulations. Say you lived in Galveston and Hurricane Ike is headed your way, but for whatever reason you don't have sufficient funds to buy enough gas at $5.50/gallon to get you out of harm's way. Are you just supposed to stay where you are and risk death? I have no problem with limiting purchase amounts (like the gallons of water issue: many times I have see retailers have sales with the caveat of "Limit X per customer"). For some in that situation - not being able to afford the price - that could be a death sentence. There were those foolish enough to stay behind, regardless of their ability to leave, and they have yet to be found, or their bodies were discovered in flatten homes.
Posted by: Miss Ladybug at October 22, 2008 04:08 PM (zoxao)
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