March 23, 2004

RE-GROK

I was going to spend a few hours composing my thoughts before I responded to Joshua's comment on my post last night:

do educate yourself on the occupation of palestine before you paint them as terrorists.

In 1948 the state of Israel was created by the US and Euro powers to form an area for the displaced jewish population after the World Wars. They re-captured and re-constituted the land of the Palestinians and begain to occupy the land stealing it from the natives. All supposed "terror" groups are fighting for the right of self-determination. This was done with backing by the US, which gives more in aid to Israel then the entire continent of Africa, even the helicopters used in the attack on Yassin are funded and sold by the US govt. America sends aid and retains allied with Israel to have a foothold in the politics of the Middle East. Israel attacks refugee camps, destroys homes and bulldozes farmlands. They are setting up an apartheid wall. www.palsolidarity.com to learn more about peace making in palestine.

feel free to email me about further discussion.

honestly, retry to grok this one.

So I got to work and saw that Oda Mae had already done most of the work for me:

There is no such group as "Palestineans" - the Romans changed the name from Judea to wipe out memory of the Jewish homeland. The British re-named the region that as a joke after WWI. The peoples who lived in that region were the gypsy nomads of the mideast that no other country would accept - see Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq and so forth. Basically, the third world squatters of the Arab region. No culture, no nothing. NEVER an established government of "Palestine."

When the Jewish state was formed, the Jewish peoples did their best to co-exist. After all, many Jews already lived in Tel Aviv and had been coming for years back to THEIR homeland. The "Palestineans" would have none of that, with the help of their now-friendly neighbors in Lebanon and Jordan. With their backing and support, the Middle East Arabs tried to drive the Jews to the sea as part of a war against their "occupation" of THEIR OWN ANCIENT (Jewish - see Jerusalem and other Jewish towns mentioned in sections of the Bible) homeland. The Pallys lost. The Israelis defended themselves and in the process kicked Arab ass.

Did they then drive the Pallys into the sea? Send them into the desert to wander for 40 years? Did they, fuck. No, they continued to try to co-exist with the blighted buggers, to behave in a civilized manner until FORCED by the Pallys to take more extreme action to protect their country and interests. Good on them. Upset by chekcpoints, those inconvenient pesky searches? Here's an idea - stop telling the entire world your one goal is to kill all Israelis and destroy their country and MAYBE Israel will play nice. But, you know, when you keep blowing up buses and restaurants and synagogues and such, you shouldn't be too surprised when you're then searched for bombs whenever you come across the border.

Maybe you should read a bit of history NOT written by the PLO. No need to re-grok this baby! There's lots out there if you're looking for something other than propaganda.


Well, good gosh, when you think about it, the old Third Reich was an ancient civilization. I mean, it was based on ancient German legends, right? And the fact that they were trying to remove the Jews because they weren't part of that original First Reich - well, yeah, it's all making sense to me now! You Neo-Nazis, brothers under the skin with those poor oppressed Pallys. Go at it and GET those Jews this time around. Hurry, the Pallys need you!

They've created their own misery - now they're having to live with it. The Arab countries flooded peoples into "Palestine" where the right of return must be given if the Arabs had lived in 'their' homeland for two years. TWO - well, that makes an ancient civilization, don't you think? Check those figures in the third link to see the real picture.

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/%7Epeters/mythology.html

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/%7Epeters/mixed.html

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/return.html

You will note that the articles, albeit some by Jewish authors, are extensively footnoted with sources. The Palestinean cause is a poorly disguised Anti-Semitism. Would there be this hoopla if the country was still "Southern Syria"? Nah, I don't think so. Nor would there be much of a Gross National Product.

Sarah, in spite of the misleading hairstyle, I think Saruman was a bit complimentary. The guy was just a crippled Orc.

When I was in college, my views on Israel were of the fingers-in-ears variety. (I wrote about this back in November.) I didn't want to even think about it, even despite my fiance's urging. Without doing a single piece of research, it seemed to me that both sides had merit: you can't just give away land that already belongs to someone else, but you can't just kill people because they've been given some land. Seemed like they were both in the wrong to me back then.

But I daresay a week of reading LGF is enough to realize that something lopsided is going on. Just look at this photo again:

palestinians


Where are the parallel photos of Israelis? Where are the Israeli prisoners released from Palestinian jails who vow to kill again? Where are the Israeli children with ski masks and machine gun toys?

So I have tried to grok a lot of info on Israel over the past two years, and I respectfully decline the offer to re-grok my position. For more on this topic, I defer to Nelson Ascher, the definitive voice on this issue, and point out this post of his. And if we're going to come down on Israel, then I agree with Vincent Ferrari (via Bunker): Let's remove all fences in the world.

MORE TO GROK:

Continued in Israel post.

Posted by: Sarah at 04:25 AM | Comments (15) | Add Comment
Post contains 999 words, total size 7 kb.

1 Oda Mae is of course 100% right. But you cannot convince those who don't want to hear, like Joshua. It seems that those like yourself who do their own research and reading with an open mind tend to see the Israeli point of view. Israel isn't always right, but they're right alot more often than the other mob.

Posted by: Simon at March 23, 2004 04:43 AM (UKqGy)

2 I personally don't see any equivalence between the two sides of this issue. The Palestineans desire the death of every Jew in Israel and the complete obliteration of that country, but are unable to achieve it by force of arms. If they were capable, had the weapons, they would have done so, it is their stated goal. Israel on the other hand has no desire to kill all the Palestineans, but they have the means. If the mindset of the two parties was switched, every single Palestinean would be dead within 48 hours, yet that does not happen. Why? Because Israel wants to live in peace with the world, and their neighbors. Personally, I think Israel should just get it over with and treat the Palestineans as they have been treated, all out war to the death, lets see who ends up standing.

Posted by: Blueshift at March 23, 2004 05:34 AM (crTpS)

3 To quote Hamas themselves: "Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement: '[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)" If you can stand to read more, go here: http://www.hraic.org/the_covenant_of_hamas.html

Posted by: Blueshift at March 23, 2004 05:37 AM (crTpS)

4 The "occupied" West Bank was Jordanian territory prior to 1967. Israel retained it after driving Jordanian forces back across the river. I have heard/read (although I cannot find any reference) that jordan eventually ceded the West Bank to Israel in compact for a truce. The land was never Palestinian. If not for the desire to make changes in the Middle East on our own timetable, I think the Bush Administration would tell Sharon to go ahead and clean out Gaza and the West Bank.

Posted by: Mike at March 23, 2004 07:38 AM (cFRpq)

5 I know exactly what you mean - my views on Israel started to change when I first encountered the Real World. Up until age 20 I had been either living at home and attending lefty schools, or at university in a hot-house of pass-the-bong-man soft anarchism. I then took a year out of uni and went to work in Germany for a year, and generally sorted my head out. One of the big turning-point events during that year was the G8 debacle in Genoa, when I realised that I had no sympathy at all for the marchers... September the 11th came just as I was regrouping in Italy before returning to uni. Since then I have investigated my beliefs, and corrected them or buttressed them with facts. Neither Sarah nor I need to re-grok. The day that my beliefs do not match the facts, I will change them. Until then, Joshua is the one who needs to re-grok.

Posted by: Dominic at March 23, 2004 08:38 AM (0h0BM)

6 "They've created their own misery - now they're having to live with it. The Arab countries flooded peoples into "Palestine" where the right of return must be given if the Arabs had lived in 'their' homeland for two years. TWO - well, that makes an ancient civilization, don't you think? Check those figures in the third link to see the real picture." So, instead of leaving the lands in that of the people dwelling on the land at present it should be given to those that existed on that land over a thousand years ago? If Native Americans started to fight against American occupation would you call this terrorism as well? But, seeing as the Natives of the "New World" were also partially nomadic in nature they must not be given rights either. The land was occupied by Arabs since the Ottoman empire, albeit only 600,000 but then why should the land be completely given to a migrant population whos number reached 174,606 between 1882-1931. The argument that Britain was curbing the migration of the Jewish population is well sourced but the fact of the matter is Britain was trying to reatin the rights of self-determination to the population that already existed. Surely the people existed in Palestine since Rome's name change and long before the Ottoman Empire recognized Filastin[its arabic name] as a province in 1512. You have taken the right of return out of context for the people lived there much longer then 2 years, even if the 600,000 people came into existance in 1512 their occupying the land is twice the amount of time we have been a country and dates just 20 years after the discovery of the very land we live in by the powers that colonized and stole it from the native population. Would you be so quick to allow the recapture and reconstitution of this land to its rightful owners, the Native Americans? And linking anti-semitism to anti-Zionism is ridiculous and a very typical response to anti-Zionism, which in and of itsself is anti-colonialism. "Without doing a single piece of research, it seemed to me that both sides had merit: you can't just give away land that already belongs to someone else, but you can't just kill people because they've been given some land. Seemed like they were both in the wrong to me back then. But I daresay a week of reading LGF is enough to realize that something lopsided is going on." You cannot accept people to peacefully give up their land to migrants when the land was given by foreign powers. Yes, the lopsidedness is the fact that the Israeli's has an army funded by the worlds largest super power, the United States of America, which is also a constant ally. "Where are the parallel photos of Israelis? Where are the Israeli prisoners released from Palestinian jails who vow to kill again? Where are the Israeli children with ski masks and machine gun toys?" These pictures are on the mantels of every parents house due to the nature of Israelis forced military service policy. The Israeli children are the 18-20 year olds in forced military service, they do not play with toys but with American armaments. They trade skimasks for gas masks. As far as defering arguments try Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky and The Question of Palestine by Edward Said. And as far as removing all fences let us also say: Lets recapture all territory for the orignal occupants.

Posted by: Joshua at March 23, 2004 10:30 AM (qLwT1)

7 Actually, Arabs didn't go to "Palestine" until Muhammed decided he wanted that territory. He never went there himself (except in a dream), but the Crusades were prosecuted to remove the intruders that followed his desires from what had always been known as The Holy Land. So, how far back in history do we need to go? If you take Chomsky and Said as your references, you have far greater problems. Try getting out a little. It would do you wonders.

Posted by: Mike at March 23, 2004 11:28 AM (YyIUS)

8 Furthermore, the Jews who immigrated to the area that is now Israel in the late 19th and early 20th centuries did not simply "settle" the land, they BOUGHT it. It was mostly considered worthless real estate, no value in agriculture or anything else. The owners of such land were mostly absentee landlords, and the Jews paid for it, then put in tons of labor in order to survive. After the state of Israel was formed--yes, in part by the UN, which has turned its back on Israel now--Israel's Arab neighbors started attacking. Israel gained land in these wars--it is a legitimate military tactic, taking over more land for the defense of a country. There are very few countries in the world that have not established their borders this way. Palestinian leaders refused peaceable, 2-state solutions in 1917, 1937, 1948, and 2000. They do not want a right of self-determination, they want the elimination of the Jews.

Posted by: Carla at March 23, 2004 01:53 PM (r5M6F)

9 Chomsky and Said? No wonder your views diverge so drastically from reality. Chomsky and Said are (were, in Said's case) liars. In Chomsky's case he is well known for making up facts to suit whatever argument he was making at the time. Read this. The Israelis - well, at the time, they were Jews rather than Israelis - bought the land they settled on. Go to http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/ and read it all before coming back here.

Posted by: Pixy Misa at March 23, 2004 01:56 PM (+S1Ft)

10 Darn, Carla beat me to it!

Posted by: Pixy Misa at March 23, 2004 01:58 PM (+S1Ft)

11 I think we should let the two go at it. The winner takes all.

Posted by: birdie at March 23, 2004 02:57 PM (IXwYP)

12 These pictures are on the mantels of every parents house due to the nature of Israelis forced military service policy. The Israeli children are the 18-20 year olds in forced military service, they do not play with toys but with American armaments. They trade skimasks for gas masks. Joshua, Israelis go into military service for the very simple reason that people are trying to kill them. Are, in fact, trying to destroy the nation of Israel. The reason they wear gas masks is because they fear - with good reason - being attacked with poison gas. There is no moral equivalence. None. The palestinian terrorists seek to maximise civilian casualties with their every operation; the IDF seeks to minimise civilian casualties even at risk to themselves.

Posted by: Pixy Misa at March 23, 2004 10:38 PM (+S1Ft)

13 And re the nonsense about the "apartheid" wall: This is a very simple matter. Hamas alone has been responsible for over four hundred terrorist attacks in Israel in the last four years. The wall is aimed at keeping terrorists out. That's it. If that means some Palestinians can't get to their jobs in Israel, then maybe the Palestinians should do something about the terrorists.

Posted by: Pixy Misa at March 23, 2004 10:41 PM (+S1Ft)

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