1 I think you might want to do a bit of research into the facts of torture in Iraq. We know that our soldiers (among other things) sodomized young boys with broomsticks and lightsticks, used electric shocks, poured acid on them, waterboarded (bringing a detainee near drowning repeatedly), attacked with dogs such that their legs were torn open. Also there are multiple instances of detainees dying under torture. This are all documented, if you bother to research, you can find them. Images of torture were deemed so extreme that our Sec. Defense does not want them released as they would cause "widespred rioting across the muslim world." We have now found the Iraqi authorities have been torturing detainees. In thier prisons they have drilled holes in victims with a power drill, poured acid on them, torn off fingernails, broken bones, and killed a number of detainees. It is a classic twist of propaganda to try to pretend that these instances of torture are somehow different and less odious, as if in some cases torture is more acceptable. So long the right wing pundits keeps bleating that beating and sodomizing someone is not torture they are the propagandists.

2 We know that our soldiers (among other things) sodomized young boys with broomsticks and lightsticks, used electric shocks, poured acid on them Cite. waterboarded (bringing a detainee near drowning repeatedly) Waterboarding does not bring a detainee near drowning, repeatedly or otherwise. It simulates drowning, causing panic in the subject. attacked with dogs such that their legs were torn open. Cite. Also there are multiple instances of detainees dying under torture. Cite. This are all documented, if you bother to research, you can find them. Well, since they are your claims, how about you bother to reasearch.

3 Sarah - that made me laugh OUT LOUD! Thanks. 'compromising position by the ugliest woman in Kentucky...' Oh man. I hope you and your husband have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy Happy Happy New Year.

4 Pixy, I was disgusted enough going through the reports that I will not be going through them again just to show some uninformed person something that is a clear fact. Please try to keep up with the reporting and facts instead of the political spin/propaganda so that you don't need to request citations for well known facts. I am also not going to go through the disgusting images of abuse that were posted, but the images of the dog chewing a bloody leg were among those posted. Your inability to keep informed is not my problem. Also, I assume that were I go go through such a task I would only be greeted with some moronic reply from some subhuman that torture is acceptable, since I have been through this song and dance before. I assume from your response that you think waterboarding is acceptable. As such, considering that we have no common ground, any conversation is not going to be fruitful. Good luck.

5 So you can't actually present any evidence for your claims? Okay, we'll go back to ignoring you then.

6 Oh, and: I assume from your response that you think waterboarding is acceptable. Assume what you want. My point was that your definition of waterboarding was completely wrong.

7 Pixy, Given that you didn't appear to understand a word I said, and given your willful ignorance, a conversation is not possible, so please do ignore me. I pity you, but I am afraid that I can do nothing. Good luck.

8 Given that you didn't appear to understand a word I said, and given your willful ignorance, a conversation is not possible, so please do ignore me. I understand everything you said. I merely pointed out your errors and requested evidence for your wild assertions. I pity you, but I am afraid that I can do nothing. I've noticed that you can do nothing. You can save the pity for those more in need.

9 Pixy, I thought you were going to ignore me. FWIW, I have plenty of pity to go around, and you are well deserving.

10 To address your two points, the reasons I haven't posted citations are several. First because I am seriously revolted by the stories and images, so I don't want to trawl through that again. Every time I see how horribly our country has been shamed by what happened there it depresses me and I don't need that. Second, given what I know about you, I think there is a high probability that were I to stomach digging up the references you would simply dismiss them, accusing the sources of bias. I really would rather not waste my time as you are perfectly capable of doing some research. Third, I have kept up on the torture stories, and have read about all of the above forms of torture listed above, if you haven't then you clearly are uninformed to the point of willful ignorance, so there is no point in my trying to educate you, you don't get that ignorant by accident. I'll grant that your description of waterboarding is more correct than mine, but that really is splitting a hair. The fact that you are so uninformed that you would call the facts I cited wild assertions shows what tunnel vision you must have, and for that I pity you. Ignorance creates suffering. This is my last post to you, as this dead horse has been beaten enough. Good luck.

11 First because I am seriously revolted by the stories and images, so I don't want to trawl through that again. Every time I see how horribly our country has been shamed by what happened there it depresses me and I don't need that. Cite. Second, given what I know about you, I think there is a high probability that were I to stomach digging up the references you would simply dismiss them, accusing the sources of bias. Cite. I really would rather not waste my time as you are perfectly capable of doing some research. I am, yes. And I find no evidence for your assertions. Third, I have kept up on the torture stories, and have read about all of the above forms of torture listed above, if you haven't then you clearly are uninformed to the point of willful ignorance, so there is no point in my trying to educate you, you don't get that ignorant by accident. Cite. The fact that you are so uninformed that you would call the facts I cited wild assertions shows what tunnel vision you must have, and for that I pity you. Cite.

12 Mr Silly: I participate in (and indeed, run) a number of web forums for skeptics, commited to the investigation and debunking of claims of supernatural events. UFOs, ghosts, out-of-body experiences, telepathy, dowsing, homeopathy, all that sort of thing. The behaviour of believers in such nonsense exactly parallels your own: Wild assertions followed by a obstinate refusal to back those assertions up with any form of evidence. You believe in goblins. Well, enjoy yourself.

13 I don't think it is the left that compares our troops to Saddam; I think it is the right. Of course Saddam's human rights record was much worse than ours. A certain element of the right, at least, seems to think that whatever we do is okay, as long as we don't sink to his level. We're Americans, though. We ought to be holding ourselves to such a much higher standard that what Saddam did or didn't do is just irrelevant.

14 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051219/ap_on_re_as/afghan_secret_prison_6 http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/19/afghan12319.htm New torture sites discovered.

15 This debate just astounds me. When someone doesn't know torture occurred when it was one of the biggest stories of last year is incomprehensible. The images were posted ad nauseum, and not just the human pyramid, panty-on-the-head crap. These images were EVERYWHERE. And it's been documented, for christ's sake. There's this thing called Google, try it some time. If you can still defend this kind of abhorrent behavior you're no better Saddam's old regime. And that's pretty scary.